Lee Elder

Joined 24 years ago

• started 158 topics
• posted 646 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Lee Elder

• 
  34

  Tough Question for ExElders...

  by Xena in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  23 years ago

  with a friend suddenly confronted with the prospect of being disfellowshiped recently it got me wondering about how an elder feels the first time he disfellowships someone.. the first time you disfellowshiped someone was there regret?

  sadness?

  or a sense of justice?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 

  23 years ago
• 

  Lee Elder 23 years ago

  The first time you disfellowshiped someone was there regret? sadness? or a sense of justice?

  This was about 15 years ago so the memories are not vivid but I recall feeling sad. This was a young sister you had become pregnant by her "worldy" boy friend. We had reproved her but she ended up with him again a short time later. No sense of justice just the feeling of having to carry out an unpleasant task.

  ------

  Did you have doubts as to your qualifications to be making this decision?

  Don't recall that - too brainwashed at the time.

  ------

  Were you nervous, was there any doubt in your mind at all that this was the right decision?

  Don't recall having any real doubt about the situation since we had recently reproved her for the same conduct.

  ----------

  When it was over did you feel like God's Spirit had helped in the decision making?

  Not really.

  ----------

  Recently ran ito this gal and her daughter and had a nice visit with her. She seemed pretty surprised that my wife and I were willing to talk with her. Sad to hear that her daughter is studying. Getting out was probably the best thing that could have happened to the sister. She seems to be doing well.

  Lee

  Link
• 
  5

  Belief in God ( The Problem with Evil) Correction

  by JT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  23 years ago

  my wife and i are back in school again and we are in a philosophy class and the issue of god has come up in the research material and the following is under consideration for us- .

  being involved in trying to explain the reason that god permits wickness i find the explanation that i use to use from the platform as a jw to be very weak to say the least .

  yet i find that it is the same basic explantion given by most "beleivers" and it too is weak as tea.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 

  23 years ago
• 

  Lee Elder 23 years ago

  If the Watchtower made a serious attempt to allow for this type of discussion, I might still be actively associated

  Part of the problem is trying to tackle the issue when you begin the discussion with something to protect or insisting that the conclusion falls within the orthodoxy of revealed religion. The process is tainted from the outset.

  That said, we are free to believe as we wish and its no one's business but our own. The difficulty arises when we fail to accord this same respect to others as is so often the case when we assert that our belief is correct and attempt to prove it. This is one of the great pitfalls of most revealed religions.

  Deism offers a reasonable explanation to the problem of evil - perhaps the best. Among the Theistic arguments I've read, the best seem to be that God is very powerful, knows many things and can do some very important things but does have limitations.

  It seems to me that mankind possesses the ability to eliminate much of the evil in the world once we make that a priority. Indeed, much progress has been made on many fronts. This seems to be a natural process of human and societal evolution.

  The Watchtower's attempts to deal with these issues are weak because their belief system is one of revealed religion. While the Bible is an enormoulsy important volume of ancient Hebrew writing, we've managed to learn quite a bit in recent centuries and any belief system that is going to hold up to serious scrutiny should probably be able to account for that which can be observed or what some term "natural" religion.

  Then again, if it all made sense we wouldn't call it faith and there wouldn't be any need to "believe", would there

  Fascinating stuff - good post.

  Lee

  Link
• 
  11

  A Young Girl Lives, Thanks to Ceasar

  by messenger in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  23 years ago

  http://www.thestar.com/nasapp/cs/contentserver?pagename=thestar/layout/article_type1&c=article&cid=1014203908594&call_page=ts_world&call_pageid=968332188854&call_pagepath=news/world.

  feb. 20, 06:06 edt .

  court denies teen's religious objection to transfusion .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 

  23 years ago
• 

  Lee Elder 23 years ago

  10 years from now there is about a 50% chance that this girl will no longer be a JW anyway. She has a very good chance of surviving her leukemia these days - perhaps as high as 80 or 90%! At least now she will have a chance to finish growing up and learning the truth about the Watchtower and making her own choices as an adult. I like her chances.

  The scary part of this story to me is the fact that the WTS is sooo quick to bring in their laywers to try and send these kids off to an early grave - its really disgusting. Especially when they are gutting the policy.

  Link
• 
  9

  No hope for understanding the universe?

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  23 years ago

  is there no hope for truly understanding the universe?.

  if a person believes that we were created by a supreme being who is in control of and fully understands the universe, he may reason that we were created with the ability to also understand the universe.. but if we are not created and have just evolved as part of a natural prosses why should we asume that our brain should have any grasp on a true understanding of things.. how can we know that our brains just are not in tune or cannot grasp any of the fundementaly important concepts that case this universe to exist?.

  maybe in trying to understand the universe we are just tying ourselves up in knot trying to know the unknowable?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 

  23 years ago
• 

  Lee Elder 23 years ago

  I suggest you pick up a copy of Steven Hawking's new book,
  "The Universe in a Nutshell", if you can find one. We've
  learned a great deal about the universe in recent years.

  Lee

  Link
• 
  14

  Suicide yes, I have concidered it.

  by Shane in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  23 years ago

  why would i want such a thing:.

  i am lonely, and i know that most of the women who are jw's are concerned with them selves they want rich men with flashy clothes.. women who want prestige in the congregation saying look i got an elder for a husband see how he is taking the lead in my family in all things and giving talks at the assembles, i show him respect as man only because he has earned it in the fashion of a bride price.. thus the above relates to me to the extent my ex-wife got me to believe in all this negative crap, that i as a man was unworthy of god and my fellow members if i don't size up to all the religious do's and don'ts.. depression oh yeah i am that just like toy's r. us, traumatic brain injury then my a wonderful wife in good standing in the holy witness congregation of twenty-one years, dumps my sorry ass saying gee you have changed too much.

  like duh, you have large portion of your brain stabbed and gouged from skull fragments and see if it does not confuse you or contribute to depressing you dear, of course no response she just goes and marries a known child molester of the congregation who then attempts it on my twelve year old daughter.. oh there's is much more so crazy you would think i was making it up, but who gives a flying crap, huh.. ~shane

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 

  23 years ago
• 

  Lee Elder 23 years ago

  Those who know me personally know that I have dealt with serious illness for a very long time. That challenge has been compounded by serious illness with my wife and son. I suspect that most individuals who wake up day after day, year after year feeling poorly are going to consider suicide at some point. One of the interesting comments I read some time ago on this subject defined suicide as what happens when one's coping resources exceed the level of pain in their lives. From this perspective the solution appears clear and straightforward - reduce the pain or increase the coping resources - either can work.

  Unfortunately, there are some individuals with circumstances that cannot be improved and in fact are deteriorating - generating more and more pain with the progression of time. This is both heart breaking for the person and those around them.

  The one remaining alternative in these situations is to increase coping resources and there are plenty of examples we can point to where individuals have successfully been able to do this despite dealing with incredible amounts of pain in their lives. At some point quality of life comes into the picture but that is another post.

  I am reminded of something written many years ago that expresses my feelings quite well:

  "John Quincy Adams is well but the house in which he lives at the present time is becoming delapidated. It's tottering on its foundations. Time and the seasons have nearly destroyed it. Its roof is pretty well worn out. Its walls are much shattered and tremble with every wind. I think John Quincy Adams will have to move out of it soon. But he himself is quite well, quite well."

  John Quincy Adams 1767-1848

  Be well,

  Lee

  Link
• 
  30

  Remaining in Association with Jehovah's W...

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  23 years ago

  remaining in association with jehovahs witnesses .

  an active baptized member of jehovahs witnesses finds significant errors taught in the central publication of the religion, the watchtower journal.

  the error is taught with frequency in private and public settings arranged by the religion.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 

  23 years ago
• 

  Lee Elder 23 years ago

  Thank you for a well thought out, well-written post. AJWRB would consider publishing such an article. This is an incredibly complex subject and I believe that there are other some other factors that also have an important bearing on the personal decision each must make. I had a very interesting discussion of this subject with Ray Franz a couple of years ago. He related the experience of an elder who preferred option one. The problem was that the man's entire family - children and grandchildren - were all JWs. The elder's wife told him that she would kill herself if he disassociated himself and it was his judgement that this was no idle threat. Who would want to be responsible for suggesting a course of action that led directly to the death of someone else? The only reasonable course, in my view, is to reserve judgement and allow individuals to make the choice that seems best for them and their families.

  Lee

  Link
• 
  8

  Center of the Bible

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  23 years ago

  this is pretty strange or odd how it worked out this.

  even if you are not religious you'll enjoy this.. .

  what is the shortest chapter in the bible?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 

  23 years ago
• 

  Lee Elder 23 years ago

  This is pretty strange or odd how it worked out this

  way. Even if you are not religious you'll enjoy this.

  What is the shortest chapter in the Bible?

  Answer - Psalms 117

  What is the longest chapter in the Bible?

  Answer - Psalms 119

  Which chapter is in the center of the Bible?

  Answer - Psalms 118

  Fact: There are 594 chapters before Psalms 118

  Fact: There are 594 chapters after Psalms 118

  Add these numbers up and you get 1188

  What is the center verse in the Bible?

  Answer - Psalms 118:8

  Psalms 118:8 (NKJV)

  "It is better to trust in the LORD than to

  put confidence in man."

  Good advice as long as you don't let someone convince you

  that they speak for God.

  Lee

  Link
• 
  13

  Blood Issue and Hypocrisy

  by teenyuck in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  23 years ago

  i have told a couple of people on the board, thru e-mail, who i am, who my mother and family are.

  i hope what i am about to post will not get my mother in trouble.

  my mother met a man about 24 years ago.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 

  23 years ago
• 

  Lee Elder 23 years ago

  Yours is an odd post - I understand that you are troubled by your mothers apparent hypocrisy, but no where do you mention that this man is a Jehovah's Witness. Do you think that the irrational beliefs of some Jehovah's Witnesses should be brought to bear upon their non JW friends? I have seen a number of situations where JWs tried to refuse blood for their non-JW family members but what you suggest is very peculiar.

  Why would you think that your mother is reponsible for the doctors giving this non JW man a transfusion of blood or platelets? Your mother seems to have passed on these strange views since she told you that your husband has first say regarding whether or not you would have a blood transfusion = utterly bizzare thinking. The whole point that we have worked to stress is informed, autonomous decision making in health care matters.

  Not to put to fine a point on it, you and your mother need to stay out of this man's choices regarding health care unless he is a Jehovah's Witness and has signed an advance directive regarding the refusal of blood products that names one of you to act in his behalf. By the same token, it is no ones business but yours as to whether or not you want to receive blood products. If you have JW family members who will not respect your wishes, you need to do the following:

  1. Have a discussion regarding your views with your personal physician and place a letter in your medical file.

  2. Appoint some non-JW family member or friend with a health care power of attorney/advance directive/health care proxy that expresses your wishes.

  3. For added insurance, place some written directives in your purse or wallet that will alert medical personnel to the fact that you have JW relatives who may be anxious to impose their irrational views of blood upon you in an emergency if you are unconscious and direct them to the individual you've named in #2.

  Make peace with your mother and shed the JW baggage.

  Best regards,

  Lee

  Link
• 
  14

  Valentines Day

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  23 years ago

  sitting here sipping an italian margarita and getting ready.

  to enjoy a romantic dinner with my beautiful wife of 20 years.

  it just hits me - how great is this?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 

  23 years ago
• 

  Lee Elder 23 years ago

  Sitting here sipping an Italian Margarita and getting ready
  to enjoy a romantic dinner with my beautiful wife of 20 years
  it just hits me - how great is this? I love Valentines Day - what
  a great holiday!

  I hope that all of you have someone to put your arm around tonight
  and tell them how much you love them. Robert Frost wrote, "Love is the
  irresistable desire to be desired irresistably." To love is to live.

  Cheers,

  Lee

  Link
• 
  11

  JW's blood as to Mormon's polygamy

  by Moxy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  23 years ago

  i think in time, the blood transfusion doctrine will fade away very similarly to mormon's polygamy doctrine.

  the doctrine met with increasing legal pressure from the state and internal dissent from more liberal members.

  the tide seems to have turned after the doctrine was about 50 or 60 years old (i am using 1830s as origin date) and from about 1900 on, the lds church no longer offically sanctioned the belief.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 

  23 years ago
• 

  Lee Elder 23 years ago

  The comparison is a pretty good one. Our strategy has basically been to make the WTS appear foolish and unethical before the medical community with the hope that at some point they will get tired of the embarrassment and finally shed this irrational policy for good. A few law suits or aggressive governments would speed things up as would an escalation in the "drying up" of support for the doctrine among the membership but the direction is already clear. I think its just a matter of time before the WTS jetisons the entire millstone. I think that most of us who have prematurely lost loved ones will be glad to see it finally over.

  Lee

  Link